what does john howard and korean people have in common?
April 12th 2007 14:07
thugs for life
when prompting the students as to why she didn't say sorry, they simply said they don't say sorry. this started me thinking. why do we say sorry all the time?
'oh sorry i dropped my pen.'
'oh sorry i killed your dad.'
which is the meaning? they obviously have polar backgrounds to them, but we flipantly wave the word around to whom ever. why not simply get rid of the word and approach life like the koreans do? don't live in a way that you would have the inclination to say sorry. that works if you think about it.
there is the obvious exception of if you are old, on a train, and want to shove your shopping in some westerners ass.... goes without saying really.
thanks to Really Long Link for the image.
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Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Cinema Three
I was walking home from the trainstation when I found three aboriginal girls (I say girls, oldest might have been 18 or 19, not so sure) gang up on an asian (probably in her 20's though I'm really bad at figuring out ages).
So I go to her rescue (well sort of anyway), the situation is obviously awkward, I'm not going to go hitting on a female, that looks bad under any circumstance so I figure I'll just talk the three out of mugging her (yeah I'm a nerd).
Anyway, they let her go pretty quickly she gets up, I half expected a 'thanks' but what I got was a 'she has my bag' heh, so I *carefully* got the bag back (ok, it was thrown at me after I yelled at her, looked like she was going to try to take something out of it),
I never did get that thank you, just walked off, not even a 'bye'. Bleh, life sucks, I mean, nah, I don't mean anything, I did what I had to do, can't expect a thank you for it.
Still strange, somehow (probably due to a stereotype that has been burned into my skull) if she were English or something else I would have expected a 'thank you' but from her being asian and all, I actually never expected anything. Dunno why, your article just got me thinking about it.
gah, life sucks sometimes, when you think too much about stuff like me, or in this case, you.
Oh well...
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
i reckon you are backing up my argument even further. i personally hate those situations where you are thrust into being 'super human' protective citizen. doing your bit for humanity and all that. and when they arise, you always seem to go 'oh here we go again....' but afterwards you always seem to get those fuzzy warm feelings inside. so although you do really want someone to say thank you or sorry, you know that you have done the right thing and it doesn't really matter anymore.
and if you want to nominate me for a noble peace prize this year, i'll be more thatn happy to accept it!
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Cinema Three
Wait, did it occur to you that maybe she couldn't speak English?
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Sorry means you were wrong,
Being wrong means bad judgement,
Bad Judgement means you are bad ruler
Bad rulers need to be removed.
Or as Chopper Reid says 'Never pead Guilty to nuthin'
Plead innocent or justified.
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Cinema Three
Comment by The black man
What convinced me to stop saying sorry?? He said to me "never apologise for being you, you do what you think is right at the time and we all make mistakes". Words to live by in my book. You may think there are times that it would be nice, even appropriate, but if you think about it by saying sorry you are just trying to eleviate your own responsibilty to your actions.
Now I don't why the lady shoved the bag up ya butt Mr J, maybe she liked what she saw *wink wink*...hahaha
If you really think about it, please and sorry are just sugar coatings for what we want or do.
just another incite into my world of the weird and the wonderful
Comment by Nina
I think Damo is on to something - in Asian societies, the concept of saving face tends to be very important. For me, that's not an issue - I know I do stupid things, so I might as well apologise for them.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
I live on sorry. In my mind Im thinking "You stupid dumb f**k" but my sweet little mouth smiles as I say "Sorry, Sorry, my fault...."
It allows devils to be treated like angels...
Comment by Always Eighteen
Always Eighteen: Japan Edition
Also nice story by Ahmed!
Maybe the old woman was having a crappy day? Maybe there have been several times when people haven't said sorry to her, so, she went, "why bother?" Or maybe it's a train thing, maybe she's afraid, maybe she's trying to show that she's not afraid, maybe she didnt even notice it? Who knows. I am friends with a few koreans, and they are some of the most humble people I've met. In China, people push in lines all the time. Here in Australia, pushing in line is deemed as impolite. A Chinese friend told me that people have to act tough (or "rude") in China because there are so many damn people there, and if they act sensible or quiet, they'll never stand out. Ahmed, about the woman not saying thanks... maybe at the end of the day, she DID want to say thanks, but at that moment she was so shit scared and terrified that she had no idea as to what was going on... I don't know if she was an Australian Asian or a foreign Asian, but if she did not know the language properly it would have been a lot more difficult for her to make sense of things at that current fearful moment in time, let alone offer a thank you.
I guess, in situations like the ones mentioned, it's best not to try to understand it from one side, but from both. Context and "the big picture" is a very powerful force in culture and social interaction and it is often ignored, hence we have ethnocentrism and a shitload of fighting. If we want people to understand where we're coming from, we have to put in the effort to understand them. If John Howard doesn't say sorry, does that mean that every Westerner doesn't say sorry...? I'd be pretty pissed off if a Korean was pushed in a train in Australia, and she came back telling everyone that Australians never apologise.
Comment by KylieW
Celebrity Obsession
Though, when you try to shove your groceries up someone's ass on a train....I think you should apologise for that. : )
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
didn't chopper also say 'don't let the truth get in the way of a good yarn'?
so it is clear that johnny lives in that noddy land then.....
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
if only donald rumsfeld had thought of that, earlier... and isn't funny that bill clinton would apologise for everything, from earlier presidents through to apartheid, but found it so hard to apologise for monica lewinsky?
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
it is funny you share a story like that - it reminds me of when i first learnt to play hacky sack. the guy teaching me said there are three rules: no hands, no sledging, and no saying sorry. the first two rules were simple as, but trying to stop saying sorry..... well that was nearly impossible - at first. i would miss the ball - 'sorry', don't say sorry -'sorry'. it was a really hard habit to break. but when i did, there was no stopping me. and it gave the term 'sorry' a whole new meaning.
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
i think it is ok to say sorry, but i do think it makes a majority of our actions justified. what if you did do something stupid and didn't apologise? how would the people that are expecting you to apologise react? wouldn't it then give more meaning to the word?
i also understand saving face, but where is the line between saving face because you f..cked up and saving face because you are being an asshole?
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
it is indeed strange at first when koreans just keep bumping into you. you feel like slapping them and saying 'didn't your mother teach you no better!' but then you learn and it kind of makes sense.
so true.....
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
i think the fact that i am still here and learning as much as i can stands to reason that i did at the end of the day put the entire situation in context - hence the reason for the post. so the 'big picture' you speak of is still unfolding it's grand narrative to me on a daily basis.
also it was not mearly an assumption that koreans don't say sorry, it is the koreans themselves that told me they don't say sorry! by labelling someone 'asian' or 'john howard' is a massive generalisation, so interpretation should be used as such.
thanks for the thought provoking response. i would have to say that the entire experience has taught me a lesson not only on the koreans, but also on my social behaviour within these situations. cultural understanding needs to flow two ways and needs to be accepted by both parties. so as i learn, i also teach.
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
that's exactly my point! why bother when you don't mean it! it is something we do all to often, and i feel it loses its meaning all together.
my ass is recovering however. thanks for your concern.
Comment by Lilla
From The Home Front
Enviro Warrior
Dream Herald
Esoteric Bookshop
Love the post, the sentiment and the idea...I'm all for it, probably already incorporated it... actually I think I have.
Without sorry, you can be truly known for who you are, can't you? *chuckle* If you are rootin', tootin', ass-shovin', shopping-bag mama, then you will been known for your bad manners and no amount of sorry will change that fact ...
However, what do you think about : Forgive me once someone realises they are a bad-tempered, [possibly bigooted], rootin', tootin', ass-shovin,' shopping-bag mama, who wants to repent?
*Craking up*
Great Post!
Lilla ...
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy
thanks. if someone has learned something, i'm all for a forgiveness. but who is to say that what they have done warrants forgiveness? what i might consider to be rude (bag up my ass), might be the run of the mill to someone else. and i don't want to take the role of god in a situation like this.
but for forgiveness to be given, doesn't someone have to be sorry? or is it possible for someone to be forgiven without them actually being sorry? i feel like morpheus asking neo 'what is real? how do you define real?'
i think back to the moment, and think yes it is kind of hard to get off a train sometimes. i imagine it would be harder if you are older. but i can't help but feel there was more than just a push from this woman towards me. even if she had acknowledged that she had pushed me too hard that would have been something, but she didn't.
at the end of the day i don't really care, and if i had to forgive her, i would. it was just a mere 'ass/bag' incident. even though she was a:
Comment by Ahmed
Video Gamer Kids
Little Green Foosballs
PolyKicks
Cinema Three
He was cool though, his years in presidency were only ' marred' by one fake scandal after another, when a real scandal came along the republicans impeached him.
George Bush is like one REAL scandal after another, really real ones and ones that actually affect the country, badly (how getting a blow job will affect the way a man runs a country in a negative way I'll never figure out).
Comment by Jonathon
Anthroblogogy